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	Comments on: Why did 1/3 part of God&#8217;s children not accept Christ&#8217;s plan?	</title>
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	<description>Moral answers to everyday concerns, curiosities, and uncertainties.  Gramps considers all questions on all topics from all sources.</description>
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		<title>
		By: Alice		</title>
		<link>https://askgramps.org/13-part-gods-children-accept-christs-plan/#comment-31891</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Alice]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2014 08:16:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://en.elds.org/askgramps-org/?p=23673#comment-31891</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[What about people who didn&#039;t want to follow God or Satan ? Do they just get lumped in with Satan ?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What about people who didn&#8217;t want to follow God or Satan ? Do they just get lumped in with Satan ?</p>
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		<title>
		By: SylviasDaddy		</title>
		<link>https://askgramps.org/13-part-gods-children-accept-christs-plan/#comment-31887</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[SylviasDaddy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2014 00:01:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://en.elds.org/askgramps-org/?p=23673#comment-31887</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Well, on the surface Lucifer&#039;s idea had a certain appeal: Under a free-agency-based system, some people will be lost, and we will miss them forever, and that will be sad. Without free agency, nobody can make a mistake, so nobody will be lost, and we will all be one big happy family. He failed to consider that Heavenly Father wants us to become like He is -- capable of designing worlds, having them built, populating them, and in every way being to those people what He is to us. To do all that takes a mature, experienced being, capable of exercising judgment and wisdom -- qualities that can only be developed by the sorts of experiences to be had here under the conditions He propounded to us.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, on the surface Lucifer&#8217;s idea had a certain appeal: Under a free-agency-based system, some people will be lost, and we will miss them forever, and that will be sad. Without free agency, nobody can make a mistake, so nobody will be lost, and we will all be one big happy family. He failed to consider that Heavenly Father wants us to become like He is &#8212; capable of designing worlds, having them built, populating them, and in every way being to those people what He is to us. To do all that takes a mature, experienced being, capable of exercising judgment and wisdom &#8212; qualities that can only be developed by the sorts of experiences to be had here under the conditions He propounded to us.</p>
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		<title>
		By: James G		</title>
		<link>https://askgramps.org/13-part-gods-children-accept-christs-plan/#comment-31827</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[James G]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Apr 2014 06:55:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://en.elds.org/askgramps-org/?p=23673#comment-31827</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In addition to all the article said, which is true, I think there may have been one additional motivation on lucifers part.  Lucifer was no idiot.  He knew what he needed to say and do outwardly in order to rise in power and influence in the kingdom of God as is evidenced in his high position.  He may have even been second only to Christ in influence and dominion.  However, no faith was required in this estate.  He could clearly see the cause and effects of various choices and chose outwardly to do what was needed for the good outcomes.  But he may not have ever understood the why and had not internalized it.  Without making righteousness internal with a real change of heart, we do not truly raise our intelligence.  He may not have understood why agency was so important.

Yet lucifer knew that in his heart he desired evil, power, and dominion over others out of some kind of enmity.  Put blankly he was convinced that he was better than Christ and better than even his Father which ultimately showed when he came out in open rebellion.  He also knew that if his knowledge was removed by the veil and only the intelligence(ability to recognize and choose truth over error) he had truly internalized would show through, that he would almost assuredly fail at obtaining celestial exaltation because he would not have the knowledge needed to continue in guile.  Being fully unmasked during this life test was an unacceptable risk for him.  It was unthinkable to lose all he had obtained by guile and veiled piety.  So in his mind he had no choice.  A tiny possibility of supplanting God and obtaining the dominion he desired was better than a lower kingdom where he would have no eternal increase.  He had to go for the long shot.

Whats the long shot?  Majority vote aka common consent. A majority vote for something wrong does not make it right.  But the Fathers respect for agency allows us to use our agency even to disobey him.  He will force no man to heaven.  We have many examples in scriptures and modern time where the agency of the people is respected even to their own condemnation.  Most notably and easily applicable to this case though would be when samuel was approached by the elders of Israel, the church and peoples representatives, to give them a king.  

God warned them that that deposing him for an earthly King was a terrible idea that would ultimately result in their slavery and destruction.  They didn&#039;t care.  They still wanted a king.  So God then directed his prophet to give them what they wanted.  He had to honor the agency of the majority of the people even if it was going to bring terrible harm to them.  I think this principle is what lucifer secretly or openly hoped to trigger in his favor.

The war in heaven is a term I always thought was confusing.  I mean no matter what everybody knew God would win right?  No.  If that were true in the minds of those in rebellion then why would they simply go to their inevitable defeat?  What if there was a very real possibility that if lucifer had swayed a majority to depose Father and install him to rule over them that Father by his very nature and respect for eternal laws including agency, would have be bound to honor it?  If thats the case then i can see exactly why this would be called a war in heaven because it would have had very real consequences and risks fraught with very real chances that if a majority was reached lucifers forces would override the agency, by majority vote, of the Fathers remaining children.

There is nothing that tells us the third part that followed lucifer were truly 33.3% of his children.  It is only said that it was the third part.  They could have been 49.99999%.  There could have been a third part of maybe 10% who were truly valiant in the defense if Father.  And the remaining third part could have been fence sitters that struggled but eventually threw their lot in with father tipping the scales against lucifer.  This the kind of war of ideas with very real consequences that could have engendered the kind of hatred and vitriol that lucifers and his followers harbor towards those who formerly were their brethren and sisters.

If this is true then we should be careful the changes we clamor for.  Ultimately God will respect our agency.  That is the difference between him and the adversary.  The other poster makes good points that the same war continues with essentially the same sides today.  But believing either of the major political parties represents good or evil anymore is naive.  They are both corrupt to the core. Imho]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In addition to all the article said, which is true, I think there may have been one additional motivation on lucifers part.  Lucifer was no idiot.  He knew what he needed to say and do outwardly in order to rise in power and influence in the kingdom of God as is evidenced in his high position.  He may have even been second only to Christ in influence and dominion.  However, no faith was required in this estate.  He could clearly see the cause and effects of various choices and chose outwardly to do what was needed for the good outcomes.  But he may not have ever understood the why and had not internalized it.  Without making righteousness internal with a real change of heart, we do not truly raise our intelligence.  He may not have understood why agency was so important.</p>
<p>Yet lucifer knew that in his heart he desired evil, power, and dominion over others out of some kind of enmity.  Put blankly he was convinced that he was better than Christ and better than even his Father which ultimately showed when he came out in open rebellion.  He also knew that if his knowledge was removed by the veil and only the intelligence(ability to recognize and choose truth over error) he had truly internalized would show through, that he would almost assuredly fail at obtaining celestial exaltation because he would not have the knowledge needed to continue in guile.  Being fully unmasked during this life test was an unacceptable risk for him.  It was unthinkable to lose all he had obtained by guile and veiled piety.  So in his mind he had no choice.  A tiny possibility of supplanting God and obtaining the dominion he desired was better than a lower kingdom where he would have no eternal increase.  He had to go for the long shot.</p>
<p>Whats the long shot?  Majority vote aka common consent. A majority vote for something wrong does not make it right.  But the Fathers respect for agency allows us to use our agency even to disobey him.  He will force no man to heaven.  We have many examples in scriptures and modern time where the agency of the people is respected even to their own condemnation.  Most notably and easily applicable to this case though would be when samuel was approached by the elders of Israel, the church and peoples representatives, to give them a king.  </p>
<p>God warned them that that deposing him for an earthly King was a terrible idea that would ultimately result in their slavery and destruction.  They didn&#8217;t care.  They still wanted a king.  So God then directed his prophet to give them what they wanted.  He had to honor the agency of the majority of the people even if it was going to bring terrible harm to them.  I think this principle is what lucifer secretly or openly hoped to trigger in his favor.</p>
<p>The war in heaven is a term I always thought was confusing.  I mean no matter what everybody knew God would win right?  No.  If that were true in the minds of those in rebellion then why would they simply go to their inevitable defeat?  What if there was a very real possibility that if lucifer had swayed a majority to depose Father and install him to rule over them that Father by his very nature and respect for eternal laws including agency, would have be bound to honor it?  If thats the case then i can see exactly why this would be called a war in heaven because it would have had very real consequences and risks fraught with very real chances that if a majority was reached lucifers forces would override the agency, by majority vote, of the Fathers remaining children.</p>
<p>There is nothing that tells us the third part that followed lucifer were truly 33.3% of his children.  It is only said that it was the third part.  They could have been 49.99999%.  There could have been a third part of maybe 10% who were truly valiant in the defense if Father.  And the remaining third part could have been fence sitters that struggled but eventually threw their lot in with father tipping the scales against lucifer.  This the kind of war of ideas with very real consequences that could have engendered the kind of hatred and vitriol that lucifers and his followers harbor towards those who formerly were their brethren and sisters.</p>
<p>If this is true then we should be careful the changes we clamor for.  Ultimately God will respect our agency.  That is the difference between him and the adversary.  The other poster makes good points that the same war continues with essentially the same sides today.  But believing either of the major political parties represents good or evil anymore is naive.  They are both corrupt to the core. Imho</p>
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		<item>
		<title>
		By: Highwinder		</title>
		<link>https://askgramps.org/13-part-gods-children-accept-christs-plan/#comment-32679</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Highwinder]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2014 17:46:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://en.elds.org/askgramps-org/?p=23673#comment-32679</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The reason why Satan was able to lead so many away was a convincing and powerful sales pitch.  Satan&#039;s plan was presented as a life of ease, absent of hardship or pain, and guarenteed results (that he actually couldn&#039;t deliver).  Now compare this ot the more challenging plan of the Savior&#039;s, a plan of agency, self-reliance, consequence, likely hardship, glory to the Father, and the goal of progression obtained.  Satan&#039;s more glamorous plan of &quot;gilded cage&quot; slavery, dependance, lack of consequence, forfeit of agency, and glory given to some other charismatic leader fooled many.  2/3 of us saw through all of that.  Satan was allowed to take his defeated plan to earth, where he is allowed to continue to tempt mankind with it.  You can see this continuing battle taking place in the political systems of the world.  When it&#039;s all bloiled down, there are only two political platforms, most commonly referred to as conservative and liberal platforms.  There are indeed very easily identified traits to both platforms as being the Savior&#039;s plan vs Satan&#039;s plan, still being fought here on earth.  One promotes self-reliant, productive, motivated people who respect God and the rule of law.  The other generally seeks to make people dependant on the state, make wonderful promises of lives of ease that simply cannot be kept, take away their agency, and bring glory to a charismatic leader instead of God, usually criticising religion itself.  Every nation has their own names for these two &quot;political platforms&quot;, but they are indeed manifestations of the two plans presented by the Savior and Satan before the earth was created.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The reason why Satan was able to lead so many away was a convincing and powerful sales pitch.  Satan&#8217;s plan was presented as a life of ease, absent of hardship or pain, and guarenteed results (that he actually couldn&#8217;t deliver).  Now compare this ot the more challenging plan of the Savior&#8217;s, a plan of agency, self-reliance, consequence, likely hardship, glory to the Father, and the goal of progression obtained.  Satan&#8217;s more glamorous plan of &#8220;gilded cage&#8221; slavery, dependance, lack of consequence, forfeit of agency, and glory given to some other charismatic leader fooled many.  2/3 of us saw through all of that.  Satan was allowed to take his defeated plan to earth, where he is allowed to continue to tempt mankind with it.  You can see this continuing battle taking place in the political systems of the world.  When it&#8217;s all bloiled down, there are only two political platforms, most commonly referred to as conservative and liberal platforms.  There are indeed very easily identified traits to both platforms as being the Savior&#8217;s plan vs Satan&#8217;s plan, still being fought here on earth.  One promotes self-reliant, productive, motivated people who respect God and the rule of law.  The other generally seeks to make people dependant on the state, make wonderful promises of lives of ease that simply cannot be kept, take away their agency, and bring glory to a charismatic leader instead of God, usually criticising religion itself.  Every nation has their own names for these two &#8220;political platforms&#8221;, but they are indeed manifestations of the two plans presented by the Savior and Satan before the earth was created.</p>
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