How are the rules of the LDS Church man-made? If you accept the Church, then you have to accept that the rules are made by God, not man, as abundantly set forth in the scriptures. Yes, Jesus associated with sinners during his earthly ministry, but he never condoned their sins. His whole ministry was aimed at sinners. He said, “They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance” (Mark 2:17). How could he call them to repentance if he never associated with them? Yes, Jesus loves us more than we can imagine, and he expects us to love each other, but he never condones our sins or expects us to condone those of others. You’re absolutely right when you say Jesus was against those who saw rules as an end in themselves, and His Church has never taught that rules are an end in themselves. Every rule and commandment has blessings predicated on it. It’s certainly not the intent of God or HIs Church to “break” people in any way. If we’re “broken,” it’s not because the Church has broken us, but because we haven’t followed the rules and have been too hard-hearted to listen to God’s word. If someone dies of emphysema or alcohol poisoning, it’s not because the Church has done it to that person, but it’s because that person ignored the Word of Wisdom and smoked or drunk alcohol. I absolutely agree that some in homosexual relationships have shown greater love than some in heterosexual marriages. They’ll be judged, like the rest of us, and their love for each other will be taken into account.

Marriage should have no place in the law. It should be determined by religious leaders and ordinances alone – which is what the temple does.

That “statement” by Joseph Smith that you refer to was misattributed to him by someone who had apostatized.

Really wish Liz would answer this.

…you got a reference on that Joseph Smith statement?

It is not just the LDS church that has these rules, but I am not sure they are right. They are man made rules, so why blame our own prejudices on God. Jesus was totally against those who saw rules as an end to themselves. If people truly love and care for each other who is any one else to tell them that isn’t love. Maybe if the purpose of being exalted is to go on to have children in the celestial kingdom then there are enough heterosexual couples to do that , just as there are on earth. I am not homosexual but I know many that are in loving relationships which would put heterosexual marriages to shame and I have also worked professionally with those who the church ( this church, evangelic , Catholic- they all have the same attitudes) have broken and many have taken their lives because of the way various churches have regarded them. There are actually quite a big lobby of Gay Mormons, so it isn’t me, I am a pensioner in my 70s, with 4 children, 13 grandchildren and 6 great grandchildren. None of them are gay so I don’t have a personal axe to grind but I also wont stand by and watch people’s lives being ruined by continuous negation either. That is not what being a Christian ( of any denomination) should be doing. Jesus walked and ate with al the outcasts, He didn’t have much time to spend on those who only cared about following orders, the Pharisees.

No one in the church is telling anyone not to “be” what they want. However, if you want to “be” in a homosexual relationship, you just aren’t going to “be” a member of the church, let alone hold a Temple recommend. It’s actually pretty simple. You can “be” a single homosexual and be a member of the church eligible for all blessings, just like you can be a single heterosexual and be eligible for all blessings. In both cases as long as you don’t violate the law of chastity, you will have no problems. If a homosexual gets married to another homosexual, God’s law has been broken and they lose their opportunity to “be” a member of the church and partake in Temple blessings. It’s not really hard to understand, coming here and posing question after question and stating your opinion over and over again isn’t going to change it. If you don’t like the Gospel’s teachings, you’re free to find a church that acts more in line with how you feel. Butting your head against the wall here won’t change the way the LDS Church looks at this, all that will happen in the end is that you will end up with a headache.

It took me a very long time to learn that love is BEING not an act that one does!! Making love is being loving with another, not doing some sort of act that may or may not be considered OK. To tell someone not to BE, when that BEING is loving another person full, is emotional and spiritual cruelty and what purpose would it serve ?

I am with you, Liz, in so many ways.God’s love for us is perfect and he loves it when we approach that perfection. It’s so hard to imagine perfect love existing simultaneously with condemnation. It’s so easy to look out of context at some things Jesus said and conclude that anything we lovingly want is OK. Christ can say, “I don’t condemn you,” when speaking to us in the midst of our mortal probation, but he surely adds the words that guide us from that moment on: “go and sin no more.” If we were to persist in doing things He has identified as sin to the end of our mortal lives, I suspect the message at the moment when it is time for him to judge will be “I love you always, enjoy the terrestrial kingdom.” (I hate people who are disrespectful to each other and I’m not trying to be flippant.) Here’s the irony I see. No mormon could EVER feel honestly justified in hating someone for being gay, could never honestly believe, let alone hold up a poster and shout “God hates gay people.” Unthinkable. I have seen other religious people do this and it baffles me. The irony is that truths revealed in the latter days give LDS christians more doctrinal reasons to support heterosexual marriage than any other religion I know of (though I freely admit I don’t know everything). Namely, God is literally the father of our spirits. Each of us has a father and a mother in heaven. Eternal parenthood and eternal joy in our posterity is the fullest realization of our potential as children of God. Precisely this is His pattern for happiness. This is not possible in same sex marriage, alas, no matter how awesomely wonderful the people involved genuinely are (and regardless of how many examples of horrible people involved in heterosexual marriages we could think of). This is getting over long, so I will conclude with this thought I have shared with my children. We have to ask ourselves a few key questions which I will over simplify here: Is there a God? Does God have an opinion on the question at hand? Do I care to heed God’s opinion or do I care more about my own opinion? It’s the work of a lifetime, literally. I wish us both luck.

All I can say is that I have met same sex couples who’s lives and service to others way exceeds many heterosexual couples. I have know members who’s own fathers have been Bishops of Bishops counsellors and they have been sexually abused by those men. Which is the greatest sin I ask? To love someone of the same gender and fully, or to be a respectable married Elder in the church who thinks it is fine to hold their callings, and hold a temple recommend while abusing their own child? This maybe an extreme example but love is respecting another not just being of he opposite sex and seemingly disrespect the their covenants , callings and their children? I would rather listen to the definition of love in the Acts of the Apostles ie that of all the commandment love is the greatest. As a former social worker/counsellor who has worked with distressed and suicidal couples who have been rejected by several different churches I have to say that Jesus was right when he criticised the Pharisees for putting laws before Humanity and love of our fellow people and that nothing can separate us from the love of God x