Gramps,

Will those who rejected God’s plan in heaven and were cast out be able to return?

Dan

Answer

Dan,

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believes that God is both infinitely loving and perfectly just. His plan for His children is universal and inclusive, designed so that—”except for the most stubbornly unwilling”—all will eventually be united and exalted in some degree of heavenly glory. As beautifully stated by Terryl and Fiona Givens,

God has the desire and the power to unite and exalt the entire human family in a kingdom of Heaven, and except for the most stubbornly unwilling, that will be our destiny…He is not predisposed to just the fast learners, the naturally inclined, or the morally gifted. The project of human advancement that God designed offers a hope to the entire human race. It is universal in its appeal and reach alike.

This doctrine contrasts with the narrower conceptions of salvation in some Christian traditions, which have often speculated that only a destined few would join God in heaven while all others would be consigned to torment.

Scriptural texts frequently cited in Church teachings affirm this broad plan of hope. For instance, Jesus declared, “This is the Father’s will…that of all which He hath given me I should lose nothing” (John 6:39), highlighting God’s intent that none be lost unnecessarily. The Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants emphasize the repeated opportunities God grants for repentance and return. The allegory of the olive tree (Jacob 5) demonstrates the Lord as a gardener who does not give up on His vineyard after a single season of bad fruit, but continually seeks to reclaim, nurture, and redeem His children.

However, this hope is not a blanket guarantee of identical results for all. Free agency—our ability to choose—is fundamental to God’s plan. We may choose to become like Him and dwell in His presence, or we may choose otherwise, and God honors those choices with integrity. The “universal reach” of the Atonement does not override the eternally binding consequences of truly informed, final rejection.

A unique aspect of the Church’s doctrine is its emphasis on the spirit world—a place of continued learning and opportunity after death. Not only will individuals have the opportunity to accept the Gospel and repent of their sins while living here on this earth, but also in the spirit world. This is made possible because, according to 1 Peter 3:19-20, Jesus Christ “went and preached unto the spirits in prison,” those who departed mortal life without hearing or accepting His gospel.

This doctrine is verifiable both from scripture and the teachings of Church leaders. President Joseph Fielding Smith explained,

“Knowing of the love the Father has for his children, we may rightfully conclude that the Father has arranged the plan of salvation so that all his children may have the fullest opportunity of salvation…Temple work is for the purpose of giving to every man and to every woman the blessings of the higher ordinances of the gospel that are essential to salvation in the kingdom of God. There is not an  ordinance performed in the temple that does not pertain to this mortal life. When we go into the temple and act for somebody else, we are treating that person as though we were that person living here, doing for him just what he would have to do if he were in mortal life.”

Thus, for the masses who lived and died without knowledge of Christ or His ordinances, there is both mercy and opportunity beyond the grave. The Church’s practice of vicarious ordinances in temples is a reflection of this belief—a living person stands as proxy, so the dead might have a full, fair chance to accept or reject the gospel in the spirit world. As the Book of Mormon’s allegory teaches, the door remains open for a return to the Lord, providing no unpardonable sin has been committed.

It is essential to clarify, however, that this “second chance” is not a loophole for the willfully rebellious or those who, with full knowledge, reject Christ. There are no second chances for the Lord’s covenant people who have chosen to rebel…Our Heavenly Father…will provide every person the opportunity to receive, to accept or reject, the necessary ordinances as given by our Father in Heaven. God’s justice means we are judged according to the light and opportunity we have received, both in mortality and the spirit world.

The doctrine of the “sons of perdition”—those who, with a perfect knowledge, openly and definitively reject God and His plan—is sobering. The spirits who followed Satan in the pre-mortal Council in Heaven are a clear example of beings for whom no further opportunity for redemption exists. As explained in another answer: “To the best of my knowledge and understanding, the answer is they already had their chance, and they chose to reject it. Our understanding is that in the pre-existence, we were all given about the plan, the need for bodies, and the need for the Atonement. It was against this light and knowledge that Satan and his followers rebelled…they wanted to do it their way and not God’s way.” Their state of rebellion, in the full awareness of God’s plan, is classified as the ultimate form of rejection—an irrevocable decision.

This is not an easy state to attain. Doctrine and Covenants 76:44-46 states, “He saves all except them—they shall go away into everlasting punishment…to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment.” The scripture reiterates that all of God’s children—except those who deliberately and knowingly become sons of perdition—will be saved in some kingdom of glory.

The reason for this finality is the quality of rebellion involved. Unlike those who sin in ignorance or weakness, Satan and his followers acted against “great light and knowledge.” Satan possessed the same agency we all had in the pre-mortal life. While most of us used our agency to obey God…Satan and those who followed after him used their agency to fight against God. Satan planted seeds of rebellion and disobedience. Eternal Justice demands that he receive the consequences of that choice, and one of those consequences is a complete loss of an opportunity for a mortal life. Such is a permanent forfeiture, not stemming from arbitrary exclusion but as a direct result of choices knowingly made.

For mortals, the situation is both hopeful and cautionary. All who attain mortality had already chosen Christ’s plan in the pre-existence. Yet, in mortal life, men and women are on a spectrum of righteousness, with some very much under the influence of that evil one and others striving to follow the Savior. Those who err, even grievously, can still repent except in the rare case of becoming a “son of perdition”—knowingly and fully rejecting the Holy Ghost. After suffering for their sins, even the most wicked will eventually acquire a telestial glory, which “surpasses all understanding” (Doctrine and Covenants 76:89).

The only ones truly lost are those who, after receiving full light, eternally reject it. For the vast majority, God’s plan remains open at every turn, always prodding, inviting, tutoring, and, above all, loving.

Gramps

Gramps,

Did we earn our earthly station when and where we came to earth?

Sam

Answer

Sam,

Every human being, at one time or another, confronts the question: “Why am I here, and did I have any say in my life’s circumstances?”  Did we select our families, cultures, hardships, or missions before birth? Or are the circumstances of mortality something divinely appointed, outside our direct influence?

Asking if we chose or agreed to our earthly circumstances ignites passionate discussion among members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Some hope the circumstances of their birth, opportunities, or even trials are reflective of choices made long before mortality. Others are comforted by the idea of a wise, loving God, crafting life’s details for a greater good. But is there a doctrinal consensus?

The truth is: the question strikes at the heart of what it means to be a child of God, endowed with agency yet subject to factors beyond mortal understanding. While some clues and teachings exist, definitive answers remain elusive, nudging each person to seek personal revelation, study, and faith.

One foundation of Latter-day Saint doctrine is the reality of agency—the God-given ability to choose. Scriptures teach that “without agency there would be no purpose to our existence. We would not have the ability to act or be acted upon; as such, we know our agency existed in the pre-mortal councils of heaven.”

In the premortal realm, all of God’s spirit children lived with Him. There, Heavenly Father presented the Plan of Salvation, including the necessity of an earthly experience. Each spirit had to decide whether to accept this plan, with all its inherent risks and blessings.

The scriptural record points to this matter. The Book of Abraham explains:

And they who keep their first estate [premortal obedience] shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate [mortal life] shall have glory added upon their heads forever and ever. (Abraham 3:26)

Here, “estate” refers not to property, but to stages or opportunities for growth through obedience. President Henry B. Eyring corrected a common misunderstanding:

You and I accepted that invitation to be tested and to prove that we would choose to keep the commandments of God when we would no longer be in the presence of our Heavenly Father.” Thus, all mortals who come to earth have already used their agency to accept God’s plan.

Having a body is a blessing. It is a gift we received because we kept our first estate in our premortal life. Because we have gained a body, we are now more like God than we were before coming to earth. People who understand these truths understand that the ‘real’ self, or soul, is both body and spirit. They may feel a oneness, an inner satisfaction, as both parts work together in righteousness. They see their body as a blessing, as a reward for past righteousness. These people are grateful to have the privilege of being able to progress to this second estate to become more like God, and they want to prepare, both in body and in spirit, to live with their Heavenly Father again.” (Barbara Lockhart, “The Body: A Burden or a Blessing?” Ensign, Feb. 1985, 57)

But what does this original decision mean for the details of our mortal experience—parents, culture, talents, trials? That is where the doctrine becomes less defined.

Within the scriptures and teachings of leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, there is no explicit statement that affirms we individually selected or agreed to every aspect of our earthly circumstances. The absence of clarity results in genuine debate among faithful members.

Elder Joseph Fielding Smith broached the topic directly, stating:

We have no scriptural justification for the belief that we had the privilege of choosing our parents and our life companions in the spirit world. This belief has been advocated by some, and it’s possible that in some instances it is true, but it would require too great a stretch of the imagination to believe it to be so in all, or even in the majority of cases. (Way to Perfection, p. 44)

He acknowledged that while it might be possible in rare instances (perhaps for certain prophets or especially chosen individuals), it is not doctrinal to assert a universal, conscious selection of all life’s circumstances.

This emphasis is echoed in modern counsel for personal spiritual inquiry. To come to any correct conclusion, an individual must pray, fast, and then study the words of scripture and prophets to gain personal revelation on the matter, even though members’ feelings may differ.

What can be drawn from this? The only collective “choice” universally affirmed by Church teachings is the broad, vital acceptance of God’s plan and the willingness to experience mortality under its conditions. The specifics of one’s earthly lot—parentage, health, culture—are not presented in scripture as selections we made.

That said, some suggest that by accepting God’s overall plan (knowing it included the experience of both good and evil, joy and suffering), we implicitly agreed to the circumstances necessary for our growth and testing. This aligns with the teaching, “if we accepted Heavenly Father’s plan we also chose to accept our earthly circumstances and experiences on a whole.”

Why would a loving Heavenly Father send His children into such widely varying circumstances?

Scripture abounds with explanations:

For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so … righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one. (2 Nephi 2:11)

As articulated in the Book of Mormon and reinforced by modern prophets, the plan of salvation only works if God’s children encounter real choices—good and evil, comfort and trial, satisfaction and longing. Without struggle and sorrow, there could be no true joy.

God’s wisdom in creating a world of adversity is clear: individual growth requires challenge.

One unique teaching of The Church is that this world, in particular, plays a singular role in the cosmic drama. When asked why the Savior was born here, rather than on any other world, the answer returned is humbling: according to scriptural revelation to Enoch, no other world was so wicked as this one. The Lord observed, “among all the workmanship of mine hands there has not been so great wickedness as among thy brethren.” (Moses 7:36)

Paradoxically, it was to this, the most challenging of worlds, that the Savior chose to descend, “that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth.” (Doctrine & Covenants 88:6)  And yet, Latter-day Saint doctrine also holds that the most righteous spirits may be sent here to help balance the scales of wickedness and to further God’s purposes. The inherent opposition in all things applies not only to individuals but also to the world itself.

Gramps

Gramps,

I’m a firm believer that we are all created equal before God. I also know that our eternal destiny is a product of our agency (whether we choose to follow Christ), not the false doctrine of predestination. But from revealed scriptures, it appears some souls were nobler or greater than others, even from the premortal existence, when God chose His future rulers and priests (Abraham 3:22-23). If we are all created equal, why are some souls naturally greater or more valiant than others?

Justin

Answer

Justin,

I’d ask you to consider what the meaning of “equal” means.  Being “created equal” is not a mathematical declaration, but a philosophical one.  When the Declaration of Independence declares that “All men are created equal” this does not mean that every person has exactly the same traits.  It means that they shall have equal protection under the law.

Some people are born shorter, some taller. Which ones would have a better chance of being in the NBA?  Some are gifted with math/science abilities; others can’t balance a checkbook.  Which ones would have a better chance at becoming a NASA engineer?

So, when God created us as “equal” do you believe he created us to be exact replicas of each other?  No.  We all have our individual strengths and weaknesses.  We had them as intelligences before God housed us in spirit bodies.

And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all. (Abraham 3:19)

(I need to clarify that “intelligent” in this context is not about what we mortals measure as IQ.  It is about being in harmony with light and truth.)

The verse above indicates that no one is “exactly” the same.  By definition, that means we’re all at different levels of pretty much everything.  But for each of God’s creations, He prepared spirit bodies to house them in.  Later, on earth, He housed those spirits/intelligences in physical bodies.  But that portion of us that is what we might call “our fundamental identity or consciousness” was always there before God created our spirits.

Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.  (Doctrine & Covenants 93:29)

In the world of spirits, we were considered equal in that we were given equal opportunities to learn, grow, and prove ourselves.  Given that perfectly equal environment, some who excelled in that spiritual education were considered great and noble spirits.  Other spirits failed their first estate and chose to follow Satan before even coming to earth.  And there were those who learned what they could but didn’t make as much progress as the great and nobles.  Yet they still chose to follow the Father and submit ourselves to our mortal probation.

On earth, we are all given an opportunity to prove ourselves in our mortal probation period.  This opportunity is given to all spirits regardless of how we progressed in the pre-earth life.  Some of those great and noble spirits (like King David) failed during their probation.  So, we see that even if we progress well in pre-earth life, it doesn’t necessarily mean we will succeed spiritually in this life. Why?  Free agency.

You mentioned that the Calvinist belief in predestination is a false doctrine.  That is true; the doctrine is false.  But the primary reason it is false is because of the concept of Ex Nihilo Creation.  This means “Creation from nothing.”  If God truly started with absolutely nothing, then it necessarily follows that whatever our tendency towards evil, it was God who built it into us.  So, whatever He put into us is what determines our Eternal destiny.  That is predestination.  And this means that God created some of us specifically for the purpose of going to hell for all eternity.  We reject this doctrine.

On the other hand, we declare that the “intelligence” which is more basic than spirit was always pre-existent, then that is a part of us that He had no hand in creating.  Instead, our Father housed us in the best spirit bodies He could provide.  And gave us an upbringing in the pre-earth life that was the best possible.  Then we all had to experience a flawed mortal world to continue our probation.

Because we were pre-existent, the choices we make are truly ours to make.  But they come with consequences.  And even if we have great and noble intelligences, we may still end up choosing sin, for it is given to us to choose.  God has no culpability in our decisions.

It is truly for us to choose what to do based on our varied talents and abilities.  If we succeed, great.  If we fail, we hopefully learn from our mistakes, call upon the Atonement of Christ, and grow from the experience.

So, the equality is really the fact that we all get a chance to choose right and wrong — the chance to prove ourselves or damn ourselves.  The opportunity is provided to us as a free gift.  Now it is up to us to determine our place in eternity by how we choose in this life.

Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.  (2 Nephi 2:27)

Gramps

Gramps,

I understand that the Lord told Enoch He could look at all His creations and not find any so wicked.  Are we sent here because we weren’t as righteous as those sent to other planets?

Shasta

Answer

Shasta,

Many members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints ponder the reasons for our existence on Earth, especially in contrast to other worlds. A common question arises: Were we sent to this Earth because we weren’t as righteous as people on other planets?

According to Moses 7:36, this Earth is described as the most wicked of all worlds:

Wherefore, I can stretch forth mine hands and hold all the creations which I have made; and mine eye can pierce them also, and among all the workmanship of mine hands there has not been so great wickedness as among thy brethren.

This stark declaration emphasizes the unique challenges faced by humanity and the profound need for the Savior’s atonement in this world. The notion that Earth is the “most wicked” does not imply that those who inhabit it are less righteous than beings on other planets. Instead, it highlights the potential for great growth amidst significant trials and tribulations.

Despite the wickedness, it is crucial to recognize that some of the most righteous spirits inhabit this Earth. As stated in 2 Nephi 2:11, “For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things.” This principle suggests that righteousness exists alongside wickedness, indicating a balance. The Savior Himself chose to come to this Earth, emphasizing that it is a place where wickedness and righteousness coexist and significant spiritual growth can occur. Many members of the Church believe that among the spirits sent to Earth are individuals who possess remarkable faith and virtue, capable of influencing the world for good.

The doctrine of agency plays a crucial role in understanding our existence. Abraham 3:24-28 teaches that all spirits have agency to follow God’s plan. This agency is foundational to our mortal experience, allowing us to make choices that lead to growth and learning. The ability to choose between good and evil is essential to our development and our journey back to Heavenly Father. Each person’s journey is unique, shaped by the decisions they make and the paths they choose. The concept of agency also means that our righteousness is not predetermined by our origins; rather, it is cultivated through our choices and actions in this life.

The atonement of Jesus Christ is a central tenet of Latter-day Saint belief, applicable universally across all worlds. Doctrine and Covenants 76:24 states, “These are they who are redeemed of the Lord; yea, these are they who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just.” The atonement provides a path for redemption, allowing all souls, regardless of their past, the opportunity to return to God’s presence. This principle underscores the belief that everyone is given the chance to repent and grow, regardless of the wickedness that exists on Earth. The Savior’s role is central to all of God’s creations, reinforcing the idea that the potential for righteousness is always present, even in the most challenging circumstances.

Life on Earth is viewed as a testing ground for spirits, as summarized in Alma 42:4: “This life is the time for men to prepare to meet God.” The challenges and trials we face are integral to our spiritual progression. They provide us with opportunities to learn, repent, and grow, further solidifying our commitment to God’s plan. The experiences we undergo are designed to refine us, helping us to develop faith and character. The idea that we are here to learn and grow is a comforting thought, suggesting that our time on Earth serves a greater purpose in our eternal progression.

The teachings of prophets and the scriptures affirm that the plan of salvation encompasses all of God’s children. In Moses 1:35, the Lord indicates that the knowledge of His creations is limited to what is necessary for our salvation. This revelation implies that our experiences on Earth are divinely orchestrated and that the struggles we face have a significant purpose. Modern prophets, like Joseph Smith and current leaders of The Church, emphasize the importance of agency, growth, and the potential for redemption. Their teachings remind us that the journey we are on is part of a grander design, meant to lead us back to our Heavenly Father.

The belief that we were sent to Earth due to a lack of righteousness compared to beings on other planets is not supported by Church doctrine. Instead, we learn that this Earth, while the most wicked, is also home to some of the most righteous souls. Our existence here is a testament to our agency, the need for the atonement of Christ, and the purpose of mortal life as a testing ground. As we navigate our earthly journey, we can find hope in the teachings of the Gospel, knowing that our experiences contribute to our eternal progression.

Other related articles:

Were we born on this earth as punishment for bad deeds in the pre-mortal spirit world?

Why did the Savior live in mortality on this particular world?

If we were born on the most wicked of all worlds, are those on other worlds more righteous than we are?

What happens to the spirits of the planets that are destroyed?

Gramps

Gramps,

If Heavenly Father and I assume Mother, have bodies of flesh and bone, why do their children only have spirits?

Terri

Answer

Terri,

The nature of God and humanity is a profound subject that has intrigued believers for centuries, particularly within the context of Latter-day Saint (LDS) theology. A common question arises: If Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother are described as having bodies of flesh and bone, why do their children, the spirit beings, only have spirits? Let’s explores this intriguing question, drawing upon sacred teachings and doctrines of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Physical Forms of Deity

Latter-day Saint doctrine teaches that Heavenly Father possesses a glorified body of flesh and bones. This belief is supported by scripture, specifically in Doctrine and Covenants 130:22, which states, “The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s.” This teaching emphasizes the corporeal nature of God, distinguishing the nature of God from the traditional view of an incorporeal deity found in many other Christian denominations.

Similarly, while less frequently discussed, it is believed that Heavenly Mother also has a physical form, sharing in the divine nature that reflects the image of God. This duality of divine parentage is essential to the understanding of human identity and the potential for divinity.

Spiritual Beings and Their Premortal Existence

Before individuals are born into this world, they exist as spirit children of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother. This belief is rooted in the doctrine of premortal existence, where every human spirit is created in the image of God, as described in Doctrine and Covenants 77:2. The spiritual essence of humanity is seen as a reflection of their divine parentage, emphasizing that humans are not merely physical beings but possess a divine heritage that shapes their identity.

The scriptures affirm that all human beings are spirit children of God, existing in a premortal state. This doctrine is reinforced in Hebrews 12:9 and Doctrine and Covenants 76:24, which highlight the familial relationship between God and His children.

Gaining Experience Through Mortal Trials

The purpose of mortal life, according to Latter-day Saint beliefs, is for spirits to gain experience and develop through trials. In 2 Nephi 2:25, it is taught that “men are, that they might have joy.” This joy is realized through the experiences gained in mortality, which includes the opportunity to receive a physical body. The physical body is essential for growth, learning, and ultimately, for becoming more like our Heavenly Parents.

The transition from spirit to physical existence allows individuals to experience a fullness of joy, which is a fundamental aspect of the divine plan. The body is not merely a vessel but a critical component of spiritual development. As Joseph Fielding Smith explained in *Doctrines of Salvation*, the purpose of receiving a body is integral to progressing toward becoming more like our Heavenly Parents.

The Plan of Salvation and Mortality

The plan of salvation teaches that spirits must be tested in mortality, where they can prove themselves worthy of exaltation. This doctrine is central to understanding the relationship between the physical and the spiritual. According to Alma 12:24, the plan of salvation involves the necessity of receiving a physical body to fulfill divine purposes.

Latter-day Saints believe that keeping one’s first estate—faithfulness in the premortal life—ensures the promise of being “added upon,” which includes receiving a mortal body (Abraham 3:26). This framework underscores the importance of physical existence in the journey of spiritual progression.

The Nature of Human Spirits

While human spirits do not possess physical bodies during their premortal existence, they are considered organized beings with real existence. As described by Joseph F. Smith in *Teachings of Presidents of the Church*, spirits reflect the character and image of their divine parents. This belief underscores the significance of both physical and spiritual existence, affirming that the spirit is eternal and divine in nature.

Bruce R. McConkie in ‘Mormon Doctrine’ further elaborates that the spirit bodies of humans are similar in form to their physical bodies, signifying a divine design that connects the spiritual and physical realms. This connection emphasizes that the journey of the spirit is intended to culminate in the attainment of a physical body.

In summary, the belief that Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother have bodies of flesh and bone while their children are spirit beings is deeply rooted in Latter-day Saint theology. It emphasizes the significance of both physical and spiritual existence, highlighting the divine potential of humanity. The purpose of earthly life is to gain experience, develop spiritually, and ultimately return to the presence of our Heavenly Parents.

Understanding this relationship enhances one’s appreciation of the divine plan and the inherent worth of every individual as a child of God. As we navigate our mortal experiences, we can strive to embody the qualities of our divine parents, progressing toward our ultimate destiny of exaltation.

Gramps

Gramps,

What and where is the scriptural basis for your contention that a person’s spirit existed in Heaven before that person’s earthly body was born? Does that spirit inhabit a baby’s body before birth or, as you see it, or does it occur when the baby emerges from the birth canal? If the spirit is not present in preborn babies, they are just blobs of human flesh that have no eternal significance. Abortion then is not a bad thing at all. The many millions of babies who were never allowed to draw their first breath are of no consequence to God. What happens to all those uncounted spirits who pre-existed in Heaven, waiting to inhabit their human counterparts?

Anonymous

Answer

Aonymous,

On first blush, your main thrust of questions deals merely with why the value of life should be placed so high. After all, if the life inside a mother’s womb doesn’t count somehow, then it doesn’t matter. Whereas if it does count, how do we know? How can we prove it?

First of all I want you to reflect on the Law of Moses. Understand that the LORD would have rather given Israel a much higher law, but they weren’t prepared for it, so instead they were given a by-the-numbers law instead. The Law of Moses was intended to guide Israel to be prepared for the higher law to be given later on. Part of the Law of Moses is the well-known punishments for adultery as well as murder. The consequence of either was death. So it would appear that the LORD viewed life as very important, both how we come into this life, and how we leave it.

Part of the reason we value life so much is because we are, in a small way, sharing in the further creative process begun from before the foundations of the Earth. God guards his powers carefully and abusing the creative powers each of us has within us is a very serious matter in his eyes.

One of our main purposes in this life is to first of all, get here and obtain a physical body. Through the Atonement of Christ we are assured that while death may separate us from our bodies, it is but a temporary thing. We will receive our bodies, perfect and immortal because Jesus was ‘the firstfruits of them that slept.’

Now to your questions directly,

(Q) What and where is the scriptural basis for your contention that a person’s spirit existed in Heaven before that person’s earthly body was born?

(A) One of the scriptures that explains pre-mortal existence is found in Jeremiah 1:5,

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

(Q) Does that spirit inhabit a baby’s body before birth or, as you see it, or does it occur when the baby emerges from the birth canal?

(A) Nobody knows the precise moment the spirit actually inhabits the body, but many Latter-day Saints believe it begins at conception. However this question is entirely beside the point. Once a pregnancy is commenced, the most common outcome is childbirth. Any mature adult should understand this all but instinctively. Then remembering that each adult was once a helpless fetus should invoke a spirit of humility and protective love on the part of the parents, but such isn’t always the case.

(Q) If the spirit is not present in pre-born babies, they are just blobs of human flesh that have no eternal significance. Abortion then is not a bad thing at all. The many millions of babies who were never allowed to draw their first breath are of no consequence to God.

(A) This causes me to see only the cold-hearted selfishness that is unfortunately more and more common among my fellow man. Can you think of any universal condition God has placed upon us that has no eternal significance? If you can, you do not know the smallest part of the mind of God, which is unfortunate because he has revealed far more to us than that. Statements like this make me sorrow for the future generations of adults that care nothing for their posterity. Already it is present among us in parents killing their own children. I fail to imagine anything more horrifying, and yes, I put unnecessary abortions in that category.

(Q) What happens to all those uncounted spirits who pre-existed in Heaven, waiting to inhabit their human counterparts?

(A) God is a perfectly just being. All who have been obedient to Him in the spirit world, or premortal existence, will obtain the promised reward of a physical body. No plans of men or Satan can stop the will of God from being fulfilled.   Which death causes you to flinch first, a newborn kitten, or a human fetus? You should flinch at both equally, because they’re both equally innocent in the eyes of their creator.

I cannot emphasize how serious abortion is as a moral issue when viewed through the written word of God. It makes no difference whatsoever when the spirit enters the body. The entire purpose of our procreative abilities is to further the accomplishment of God’s will for us all. To view them in any other light is to entirely miss the point of why we were entrusted with them in the first place. It is true there are many aspects of life that are affected by our sexuality, but none of them hold a candle to the main purpose, to bring our fellow brothers and sisters into the stage of life essential for eternal progression.

There are cases where an abortion is medically advisable, and possibly even necessary to preserve life. Even in these cases the Church gives a solemn warning that even considering an abortion in such a case must be done prayerfully and with sufficient counsel from not only doctors but Bishops as well. The tone of your comments has touched a nerve of mine that disturbs me for several reasons. My marriage and my family have not always been easy to have. My children have not always been a source of joy to me. They have been sources of worry, sorrow, anger, fear, and anxiety that only parents know. Through it all I would have never given them up for anything. I am who I am because of the family I have helped raise with my wife. I have been tempered and tested on every emotional level I could think of because of raising my children. The blessings that have come to me from the life I have lived have yet to stop coming. I cannot imagine willingly giving up any of my children for any reason at all.

Perhaps the biggest lesson we need to learn is selflessness. This world has become so selfish that abortion has actually become a debatable issue. I thought we had worked harder to provide a better world for our children. I hope that in time they can still have it through selfless decisions rather than the selfish ones being considered now.

Gramps

Gramps,

Who is the author of the Plan of Salvation and who presented it at the grand council in Heaven?

Walter

Answer

Walter,

Heavenly Father is the creator of the Plan of Salvation. Elder L. Tom Perry explained this simply in the October 2006 General Conference when he said

“Our Eternal Father did not send us to earth on an aimless, meaningless journey. He provided for us a plan to follow. He is the author of that plan.”

God created this plan in order to ensure our eternal happiness and help us in our eternal progression. According to Moses 1:39 God has a specific purpose in all he does:

“For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.”

God’s purpose and will is for us to become like him, and he created this plan so that through Jesus Christ, we can receive all that he has. Paul talks about this in Romans 8:16-17 where he states who we are, and what blessings we could receive if we follow the plan of salvation:

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

 

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Now, as to the second part of your question. We can’t say with 100% certainty who all spoke in the divine council where God presented his plan for us, but we do know God himself presented the plan to us. President (then Elder) Russell M. Nelson spoke about the council in heaven in his April 2000 talk on the Creation. He said:

“A council in heaven was once convened in which we participated. There our Heavenly Father announced His divine plan.”

This makes sense, as he created the plan, and then described it in detail to us. This also fits with the scriptural account we have received concerning the discussion that occurred on who would be our Savior. In Moses 4:1-2, God tells Moses what occurred right after he finished telling us about the plan. He says:

1 And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.

 

2 But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.

From this scripture, you can see that this discussion occurred after God had presented the Plan of Salvation to us, and the need for a Savior was explained.

Gramps

Gramps,

I have a friend that adamantly refuses to accept that we were all spirit brothers and sisters, including Lucifer as a spirit child of our Heavenly Father. He won’t accept references from the Book of Mormon or the D&C. I’d like to know more biblical and apocryphal evidences of this. Thank you for your help on this.

Richard

Answer

Dear Richard,

Here are some biblical references that seem pertinent to the problem of your friend. In the first place, if he adamantly refuses to accept the true concepts of the gospel as revealed in the latter-day scriptures there is little likelihood that he will accept the same concepts from the Bible. Because, as it is written in 1 Corinthians 2:6-14—

Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

 

But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

 

Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

 

But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

 

But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

 

For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

 

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

 

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

 

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Now, with that caveat, let’s look at a few biblical scriptures that we are all children of God, including Satan, or Lucifer. First from Romans 8:16-17—

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

 

And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Again, it is the Spirit that bears witness that we are the children of God. It would seem hard for anyone to refute the fact that we are all the children of God without admitting at the same time that he is bereft of the Holy Spirit.

Isaiah clearly states the Lucifer is one of God’s children, in Isaiah 14:12-15—

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

 

For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

 

I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

 

Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Lucifer, or Satan, is declared to be a son of God, born in the morning of God’s creation.. Because of his rebellion he is brought down to hell.One need not pile evidence upon evidence. The above scriptures adequately declare the truth to all who can be touched by the Spirit. If this is not acceptable to your friend, perhaps you could invite him to cultivate the Spirit of the Lord so that he could understand spiritual things. The very best way to acquire the humility and the inquisitive sincerity to allow one to be influenced by the Spirit is to read the Book of Mormon with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, and he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

Gramps

Gramps,

I just had an investigator ask me if the pre earth life and the spirit world are the same place. Are they are both supposed to be in the presence of God?

Rachel

Answer

Dear Rachel,

Congratulations on having an investigator confide his or her question to you.  You must be someone he respects and knows you will answer honestly.  In that light, I’ll try to answer as best as I can.

This question may stem from a misunderstanding of 1 Corinthians 5:3 and 2 Corinthians 5:8, which is an argument that sectarians use regarding the work for the dead. They believe that as soon as you die, you are with the Lord in your final spiritual state.  They forget that Paul taught doctrines that Peter characterized as “hard to be understood” (2 Peter 3:16).  Many new converts bring these mistaken beliefs into the Church with them and it takes them time to unlearn them.

Brigham Young saw the spirit world and understood much about it. He said:

The spirits that dwell in these tabernacles on this earth, when they leave them go directly into this world of spirits. What! A congregated mass of inhabitants there in spirit, mingling with each other, as they do here? Yes, brethren, they are there together, and if they associate together, and collect together, in clans and in societies as they do here, it is their privilege. No doubt they yet, more or less, see, hear, converse and have to do with each other, both good and bad. If the Elders of Israel in these latter times go and preach to the spirits in prison, they associate with them, precisely as our Elders associate with the wicked in the flesh, when they go to preach to them (Discourses of Brigham Young, 378).

Brother Brigham also stated:

When you are in the spirit world, everything there will appear as natural as things now do. Spirits will be familiar with spirits in the spirit world—will converse, behold, and exercise every variety of communication with one another as familiarly and naturally as while here in tabernacles. There, as here, all things will be natural, and you will understand them as you now understand natural things. You will there see that those spirits we are speaking of are active; they sleep not. And you will learn that they are striving with all their might—laboring and toiling diligently as any individual would to accomplish an act in this world (DBY, 380).

I mention these two citations because they describe that the spirits in the spirit world have, for the most part, the same type of communion with each other as we do here.  It feels natural to them, because all of us have been spirits much longer than we were in mortal bodies.

One difference between the unrepentant and a saint in the spirit world will be the level of spiritual communion.  Even as some mortal saints have been privileged to have visions, revelations, spiritual gifts, up to and including angelic visitations and even visions of the Lord, that can continue all the more easily on the other side.

When we pass into the spirit world we shall possess a measure of his power. Here, we are continually troubled with ills and ailments of various kinds. In the spirit world we are free from all this and enjoy life, glory, and intelligence; and we have the Father to speak to us, Jesus to speak to us, and angels to speak to us, and we shall enjoy the society of the just and the pure who are in the spirit world until the resurrection (DBY,380–81).

For the unrepentant, this is not the case.  President Young indicated:

If we are faithful to our religion, when we go into the spirit world, the fallen spirits—Lucifer and the third part of the heavenly hosts that came with him, and the spirits of wicked men who have dwelt upon this earth, the whole of them combined will have no influence over our spirits. Is not that an advantage? Yes. All the rest of the children of men are more or less subject to them, and they are subject to them as they were while here in the flesh. (DBY, 379).

Thus, the repentant saint is freed from the devil’s ability to tempt him in the spirit world. This is not the case for the unrepentant. However, if you think of it, a righteous saint enjoys a measure of this blessing even while he is alive. Obedient saints enjoy the communion of the Holy Ghost and its attendant gifts and grace. The wicked do not. We have an advantage here, too.

The Prophet Joseph taught:

In terms of location, the Prophet Joseph Smith taught that the spirit world is very close to us. During a funeral sermon, he declared that the righteous spirits “are exalted to a greater and more glorious work; hence they are blessed in their departure to the world of spirits. Enveloped in flaming fire, they are not far from us.” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 326.)

According to what I have read, the spirit world is on or very near to the earth. I don’t think that’s necessarily the case with the pre-mortal state.  The spirit world isn’t in the presence of God.  Righteous spirits may enjoy occasional communion with the Lord there, but not the wicked, exactly as occurs here on earth. The righteous gather together there and the wicked gather together as they do on earth.  Nevertheless, since the Lord bridged the “gulf” between the paradise and the prison, the spirits are free to gather with whom they choose.  The wicked who repent likely seek out the likeminded and await the time that their temple work is done. The righteous may associate with the unrepentant to win their souls to Christ.  If all of the spirit world was in God’s presence, there would be no motivation for the wicked there to exercise faith and repent.  They do not have an unfair advantage on the living in that regard.  God’s plan is always fair, just, and equitable in his sight.

Gramps

Hello Gramps,

I have come across several articles written by Evangelical Christians that claim Lucifer was a music minister in the pre-existence. Many articles refer to Ezekiel chapter 28 as proof. I have not found any mention of this in LDS literature, and am wondering if there is any Gospel basis for this. It seems to me that if Lucifer was a musician in heaven, it may be part of the reason that he works so hard to corrupt the music on earth. I would love to hear your evaluation of this claim.

Jenny

Answer

Dear Jenny,

In short my answer is, “I don’t know, but it’s possible.”  Now for a longer answer: I’ve searched, but, like you, couldn’t find anything from our leaders addressing this topic specifically.  Here’s what we do know: first, we did develop talents as spirits in the pre-mortal world. Second, Satan does try to prevent music.

Elder Bruce R. McConkie of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles said:

“All the spirits of men, while yet in the Eternal Presence, developed aptitudes, talents, capacities, and abilities of every sort, kind, and degree. During the long expanse of life which then was, an infinite variety of talents and abilities came into being. As the ages rolled, no two spirits remained alike. Mozart became a musician; Einstein centered his interest in mathematics; Michelangelo turned his attention to painting. … Abraham and Moses and all of the prophets sought and obtained the talent for spirituality. …

 

“… When we pass from preexistence to mortality, we bring with us the traits and talents there developed. True, we forget what went before because we are here being tested, but the capacities and abilities that then were ours are yet resident within us. Mozart is still a musician; Einstein retains his mathematical abilities; Michelangelo his artistic talent; Abraham, Moses, and the prophets their spiritual talents and abilities. … And all men with their infinitely varied talents and personalities pick up the course of progression where they left it off when they left the heavenly realms” (The Mortal Messiah, 4 vols. [1979–81], 1:23, 25).

From this we can guess that Lucifer developed talents alongside us.  But as to whether or not his talent was music, we don’t have enough information to say for sure.  You mentioned Ezekiel.  The verse that Evangelicals seem to take this idea from is Ezekiel 28:13:

13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

At first glance, it might be confusing to some that this is referring to Satan at all.  To clarify, this passage is comparable to Isaiah 14 where the king of Babylon is held up as a symbol of Satan from the pre-mortal existence (just as King David is often held up as a symbol of Messiah). Ezekiel 28 contains similar symbology with the king of Tyre (vs 12) getting held up as a symbol of Edenic and pre-mortal Satan (see vs 13-15: “Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God…. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; … Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.”

So, in Ezekiel’s time it was a revelation for the king of Tyre given through Ezekiel. But like so many prophetic and poetic messages, it intended another layer that is included a timeless reading. In this case, it shines light on the fall of Satan from his cherubic station.  However, I did not find anything from our Leaders or scholars that hypothesized about Lucifer being a music minister.

You are correct that Satan has made a major effort to attack music.  Several of our leaders have spoken of this, including President Ezra Taft Benson:

“The devil-inspired destructive forces are present in our literature, in our art, in the movies, on the radio, in our dress, in our dances, on the TV screen, and even in our modern, so-called popular music. Satan uses many tools to weaken and destroy the home and family and especially our young people.” (Satan’s Thrust – Youth, Ezra Taft Benson, 1971 Semi-Annual General Conference, Ensign found at scriptures.byu.edu)

 

It is possible thought that Satan uses music because he enjoys perverting something that has so much potential for good.  For example, President J. Reuben Clark Jr. said, “We get nearer to the Lord through music than perhaps through any other thing except prayer.”5 [In Conference Report, Oct. 1936, 111. as quoted by scriptures.byu.edu]

Remember, that Satan also attempts to pervert anything else that can be used for good like the Internet, or as President Benson mentioned art, movies, radio, clothing and TV.

Something else to consider.  Once a musician friend of mine shared an interesting theory. He demonstrated using music theory that, in times when religious repression in the Dark Ages was at its greatest, the music was the most sublime. It was as if the Lord granted heavenly inspiration to comfort souls. After the Restoration, despite the amazing advances in technology and science, music became increasingly corrupt, dissonant, and unholy.

Satan is like the anti-King Midas.  Instead of everything he touches turning to gold, we can think of him as someone who uses every tool at his disposal for destruction.  If I had to guess, I would say one of his talents was/is psychology because he certainly seems to have a knack for knowing how to get to our weaknesses, but even that could just come from careful observation.

This was a really interesting question to ponder, thanks Jenny.

Gramps

Gramps,

I have been a member of the LDS church all my life and believe the doctrine stating that our spirits had a gender before we became mortal.  I find myself pondering the possibility of an imperfectly gendered body.  Hermaphrodites exist, and there are any number of possible things that go wrong in forming a human body.  Is it, or could it at all be possible for someone really to be born into the wrong gender of body versus their spirit gender?  I honestly don’t know for sure. Thanks.

Lisa

Answer

Lisa,

It is hard not to ponder such a question given the current events going on around us.  The Church has clearly proclaimed that “Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose,” in the Proclamation on the Family.

There are some who state simply that “God does not make mistakes” as if that ended the discussion.  While I agree God does not make mistakes, I don’t agree that ends the discussion. God’s perfect plan is to test us imperfect people with imperfect bodies living in an imperfect word to see if we will overcome our challenges and do his will.

This plan with its imperfect bodies is not a mistake.  Many of us have to deal with physical, mental, and/or emotional problems whose root cause might be caused by something going wrong in these imperfect bodies.  There is no reason to believe that the apparent gender of our physical form is an exception to these kind of potential problems.  You mentioned one such problem (Hermaphrodites).  Medical science is full of such cases; even our chromosomes can be messed up.  Instead of the standard XX for female and XY for males, one might have Turner Syndrome (XO) Klinefelter Syndrome (XXY), Triple X Syndrome (XXX) and XYY Syndrome.

Given what we are still learning about how our physical bodies develop, I think it is also way too soon to rule out the idea that some kinds of imperfections could alter the brain structure and brain chemistry that effect a persons thoughts about their gender identity.

While there is a lot we don’t know, we do know some very important things.  We are here to see if we will follow God’s commands.  Whatever challenges we face, no matter the reason we face them, we still need to seek out and follow God as best we can.  We need to love our brothers and sisters (everyone) and try to help them also seek out and follow God the best that they can, no matter what trial they might be facing.  All of us need to seek the Spirit of God, ponder the scriptures, and have the support and guidance of trusted leaders, families, and friends as we struggle to overcome all our imperfections and follow God.

Gramps

Gramps,

Does our life in the premortal world determine our family? I was raised by a single mother and never met my father. There has been abuse in my family for several generations. I was not able to become pregnant. My temple marriage ended in divorce. All my known relatives are dead. I see happy families, and they are blessed with children and relatives. I wanted so much to have a celestial marriage and descendants, but it just wouldn’t happen. Did I  do something terrible in the premortal world?

Gael

Answer

Dear Gael,

I’m sorry for your pain and anguish.  First, I want to reassure you that the Lord loves you.  He is aware of your struggles.  He will bless you.

No, Gael, the pain you have felt in your life is not some sort of punishment for your premortal life.  The trials, tribulations, and yes, sometimes, horrors, of this life come about for different reasons.  Many of them are due to people’s use of their agency.  You mentioned abuse in your family. That happens because of people’s poor use of agency.  Your inability to become pregnant, I’m guessing, was related to a physical issue (not a punishment from God).  Though these trials are hard, you are not alone in your suffering. Many of the people we admire in the scriptures suffered greatly.  Let’s look at a few.

Job, you will remember, lost his family, his riches, and finally his health.  In chapter 3, he expresses his pain so eloquently. Here are just two verses:  Job 3:20-21

“Wherefore is light given to him that is in misery, and life unto the bitter in soul; Which long for death, but it cometh not; and dig for it more than for hid treasures;”

And remember Joseph of Egypt? His own brothers sold him into slavery.  Then every time something good seemed to be happening in his life, something else would come along to ruin it.  And yet in the end, he was just where the Lord needed him to be in a ruling position in Egypt.

Abinadi and many others were killed for sharing the gospel.

Joseph and Emma buried most of their children, and Joseph spent a lot of time unjustly behind bars, tarred and feathered etc.

No one would assume that any of them had done something wrong in the premortal life, right?

Even Jesus Christ, who was perfect, was not spared the cruelty and unfairness of this world.

But Gael, the Lord loves you, and He will not leave you alone in your struggles.  You may sometimes feel as if you are alone.  At those times, I counsel you to remember Jesus’ disciples on the road to Emmaus. He walked with them and taught them and yet they did not know He was there.  He will be with you, even in those times that you don’t know He is.  He has promised us “my kindness shall not depart from thee” Isaiah 54:10.

I highly recommend a talk by Elder Jeffery R. Holland:  Lessons From Liberty Jail.

Gramps