When reading the actual question given to Gramps, the content of the question doesn’t specify “THIS” society (I understood the point you were making). Gramps question dealt with two questions regarding Germany and the doctrines of the gospel which are not exclusive to “THIS” society; as such, Germany, Africa, Russia, South America, et cetera are within Gramps answer — thus negating the idea his example was solely in response to “THIS” society. As well as negating his example being “poor and outdated.”

As pertaining to an example, I am reminded of this phrase, “The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.” Our recent history without evidence of what you ask doesn’t negate the possibility of the hypothetical question presented by Gramps; however, human nature often repeats itself and we have evidence of mobs forming and requesting such, Genesis 19: 11-13:

“Wherefore they said unto the man, We will have the men, and thy daughters also; and we will do with them as seemeth us good. Now this was after the wickedness of Sodom. And Lot said, Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you…and ye shall not do unto them as seemeth good in your eyes.”

On my mission I read about a member of the Church in South America who actually experienced a mob knocking on his door asking if there were any women in his house.

As Elder Richard G. Scott stated, and quoted President Gordon B. Hinckley, ‘As a prophet of God, President Gordon B. Hinckley put world conditions and our opportunities into crystal clear perspective… ‘The traditional family is under heavy attack. I do not know that things were worse in the times of Sodom and Gomorrah… We see similar conditions today.”

If our situation isn’t much different than S&G, then a hypothetical scenario, one which happened in South America, is a plausible outcome. Orson Pratt provided an interesting prophecy, if proven as given by the spirit then surely it will come to pass, when he declared, “What then will be the condition of that people, [America]… it will be a war of neighborhood against neighborhood, city against city, town against town, county against county, state against state, and they will go forth destroying and being destroyed…among the American nation… there will be too much bloodshed — to much mobocracy — to much going forth in bands and destroying and pillaging.”

Should Orson’s words come to pass do you really think these mobs will have any mercy upon women when they are in a frenzied mind to satisfy their lust and natural man passions? In our day, THIS society, a mob doesn’t ask and knock at your door, they simply break in and enter and unfortunately perform their vile business.

As to the the growth and development of Zion, we are in agreement. A generation will rise who will choose Zion, who will forsake the world, and who will truly love God and love their fellowmen. What a great day that will be. Are there good people who live in America? Yes. Are there wicked people who live in America similar to Sodom? Yes.

It seems you missed the point I was trying to make here. I noted that in THIS society, meaning the United States of America (NOT Africa), we don’t have mobs going door to door today requesting that the women come out of the house to be raped. That is why I said it was a poor example. If you can can come up with even one instance like it in recent years where this has been the case in this country, I more than welcome you to list it.

Now, yes, I can agree with you there are rapes in any society today, but NOT like the original example that was stated in this country in this day and age. Refer back to what I wrote:

“I am of the mind there are enough good people in this country regardless of race, religion, or creed who would NOT stand for this sort of mob-like behavior.”

Plus, we have seen time and time again that when gangs and people start to combine to do evil in this country, so do the good to drive them out. Look up “Operation Crackdown.” Something like it is happening in almost every state.

You also mention America doesn’t protect the rest of the world. You’re right, we don’t because we are in the hole trillions and trillions of dollars. Foreign policy dictates we intervene in genocide and other heinous war crimes, but it is the responsibility of the individuals in their own countries to protect themselves and their rights. Freedom is NOT free. We know this clearly looking at our own history; we know this by looking at Bible history; we know this by looking at Book of Mormon history.

Take for instance that in Alma 51 the king-men had to be forced by Captain Moroni to fight, because they wanted the government to be overthrown.

13 And it came to pass that when the men who were called king-men had heard that the Lamanites were coming down to battle against them, they were glad in their hearts; and they refused to take up arms, for they were so wroth with the chief judge, and also with the people of liberty, that they would not take up arms to defend their country.

14 And it came to pass that when Moroni saw this, and also saw that the Lamanites were coming into the borders of the land, he was exceedingly wroth because of the stubbornness of those people whom he had labored with so much diligence to preserve; yea, he was exceedingly wroth; his soul was filled with anger against them.

15 And it came to pass that he sent a petition, with the voice of the people, unto the governor of the land, desiring that he should read it, and give him (Moroni) power to compel those dissenters to defend their country or to put them to death.

16 For it was his first care to put an end to such contentions and dissensions among the people; for behold, this had been hitherto a cause of all their destruction. And it came to pass that it was granted according to the voice of the people.

17 And it came to pass that Moroni commanded that his army should go against those king-men, to pull down their pride and their nobility and level them with the earth, or they should take up arms and support the cause of liberty.

18 And it came to pass that the armies did march forth against them; and they did pull down their pride and their nobility, insomuch that as they did lift their weapons of war to fight against the men of Moroni they were hewn down and leveled to the earth.

19 And it came to pass that there were four thousand of thosedissenters who were hewn down by the sword; and those of their leaders who were not slain in battle were taken and cast into prison, for there was no time for their trials at this period.

20 And the remainder of those dissenters, rather than be smitten down to the earth by the sword, yielded to the standard of liberty, and were compelled to hoist the title of liberty upon their towers, and in their cities, and to take up arms in defence of their country.

21 And thus Moroni put an end to those king-men, that there were not any known by the appellation of king-men; and thus he put an end to the stubbornness and the pride of those people who professed the blood of nobility; but they were brought down to humble themselves like unto their brethren, and to fight valiantly for their freedom from bondage.

Plus, it takes a Zion people to build a Zion society. We don’t dream it and it suddenly happens; it takes hard work and a lot of it. If you want the world to be a safer and better place, bad men need to be befriended, baptized, and qualified to the priesthood, so they can make an impact in their own societies.

In D&C 133 it says:

58 To prepare the weak for those things which are coming on the earth, and for the Lord’s errand in the day when the weak shall confound the wise, and the little one become a strong nation, and two shall put their tens of thousands to flight.

59 And by the weak things of the earth the Lord shall thresh the nations by the power of his Spirit.

The key term throughout your comment is “I think.” You are welcome to your personal opinion on any matter; however, your clarification didn’t provide any further detail than what Gramps stated while calling his response “poor and outdated.” It is pretty clear from the answer given by Gramps that Jesus would have done what was “right” in every situation.

You mention twice that justification would only result from the spirit of revelation, via the Holy Ghost, and this is exactly what Gramps mentioned in nearly every paragraph written as Gramp specified he would pray (as we should), consult with his Father (as we should), and then act (as we should) according to the spirit of revelation we receive (Holy Ghost). In other words, when we act in accordance with the will of God, as received by divine revelation we will always be right in our choice.

Gramps closing statement, “What would Jesus do?, he would have done what his Father commanded him to do in any, all, circumstance. In the scenarios provided, we all have the same promise, “Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock and it shall be opened unto you.” Thus, your quote, which doesn’t add to anything Gramps specified from Brigham Young, only confirms his thoughts, that people should know for themselves, by asking, knocking and seeking the Lord’s will.

As to your reasons, and belief, the idea “to protect”would again be a result of personal revelation and personal acceptance of consequences. Whether or not you want to imagine something as possible doesn’t negate that what you feel impossible, through imagination has already happened. People have invaded a home, and have raped the women inside, even in our society, even with our police force. If you think not, just type in google, “Pregnant woman gang raped home invasion,” and see what is indexed. Our society doesn’t protect other societies which do have home invasions continually, check Africa, where women in the home are raped.

What you choose to do, is between you and the Lord, what another person chooses to do “to protect” loved ones, is between them and the Lord as they ask, seek, and knock.

We’ll have to agree to disagree here. I can’t imagine even one instance in our day and society where women would be “requested” to be brought out by a mob so they can be sexually assaulted. Now I know that there were lynchings and other serious problems akin to it in the past, but in the U.S. in 2014, I don’t see it happening unless our police forces suddenly walked out on their jobs nationwide. And I don’t see that happening anytime in the near future.

I am of the mind there are enough good people in this country regardless of race, religion, or creed who would NOT stand for this sort of mob-like behavior. I live in a small community with a robust presence of different religions; on Sunday the churches are packed, and during the week the people here engage in Christ-like behavior.

I also firmly believe that the use of lethal force to prevent a group of people from breaking into your house and raping your wife or harming your children is not only legally justifiable in ANY state, but morally justified before God. Just because the “castle doctrine” by name isn’t on the books for every state is a matter of technicalityーthere are many versions of the same thing if you dig into the legality of your rights to protect your life or that of your family. You can’t tell me for one minute that if a case such as this went to court the jury wouldn’t rule your actions justified. If you don’t believe so, then I might contend it is no different than denying the common good that man possesses. In other words, the Light of Christ.

I believe two major reasons our huge societies today are even intact and people of varying beliefs can get along are these:

1. The Light of Christ in every person
2. The prayers of the righteous

Knowing that, I’m not so willing to give up on society or even my community without fighting the good fight. As members of the church, we should keep striving for good, and as I said before, if the Holy Ghost says to do something, do it.

I should also point out an interesting happening here within the church. Boyd K. Packer originally said this in 1981:

“There is a temptation for the writer or the teacher of Church history to want to tell everything, whether it is worthy or faith promoting or not. Some things that are true are not very useful.”

However, we are now seeing a 180 degree turn from this way of thinking evidenced by the various reports coming out of the church on blacks and the priesthood, DNA, and the mountain meadows massacre. In addition to those, Dieter F. Uchtdorf said this:

“We always need to remember that transparency and openness keep us clear of the negative side effects of secrecy or the cliché of faith-promoting rumors. Jesus taught the Jews, “Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” Truth and transparency complement each other.”

In times past, churches and kingdoms in Europe and other places in the world were guilty of suppressing information and this led to great divisions and the fall of their organizations. I believe if we do something, we MUST own it. When we do not take responsibility and try to hide it, we show that we cannot be trusted. On the other hand, I firmly believe that if the church continues opening up and confronts many of the larger points in our history critics take issue with, the arguments they have will eventually fade away. In short, you can’t keep beating a dead horse if the issue has already been truthfully addressed.

M. Russell Ballard also said this:

“…we cannot stand on the sidelines while others, including our critics, attempt to define what the Church teaches.”

Plus, when you see in the news about mass departures from the church it tells me one thing: the truth DOES matter. And whether we like it or not, we are dealing with an army of critics who will be able to get the upper hand on us unless we own our mistakes and set the record straight. If you remember Korihor in the Book of Mormon, there was a reason he was able to convince so many people to follow him. I believe he was able to focus on those larger issues like we see critics do today and blow them out of proportion.

On the other hand, in the ten commandments it says, “Thou shalt not bear false witness.” I take it to mean exactly that. I think the only overriding principle here is if the Holy Ghost says to, period. If the prophet told me to tell a lie and I had no confirmation from the Holy Ghost, I would not do it. Men are fallible, but the Holy Ghost is never wrong in this respect. This is why Nephi was not a murderer for killing Laban and a thief for stealing the Brass Plates, because God permitted it and the Holy Ghost confirmed it. On the other hand, I think that bar is extremely high and a rarity.

Brigham Young said this:

“What a pity it would be if we were led by one man to utter destruction! Are you afraid of this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by Him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually.”

I think any loose idea that we can indiscriminately lie “to protect” people, one’s reputation, or even the church is fundamentally wrong. I know in the church handbook it talks about “protecting the good name of the church.” My question is: Does the Lord really need our help to protect the church by lying? When I see the armies marching against Elijah the prophet and fire rained down from heaven and burned them up, I think not. I have made this point beforeーwe are not in control, the God is. I think the only way to protect the good name of the church is by our EXAMPLE of living the commandments. In fact, I would assert telling any kind of lie, especially with recording devices all around us to expose us if we do, is rather a detriment to the growth of God’s kingdom on earth, because we will prove we cannot be trusted when push comes to shove. In addition, if we are not willing to be imprisoned for the truth, we are not worthy of God’s kingdom.

I think the same goes with the hiding some of black marks on church history in the pastーit makes us as members and our leadership look untruthful. I do, however, appreciate the attempt to address some of these issues in recent years. This shows that even we members are imperfect and allows people to not to have to find some internet site ten years later with explosive revelations that makes us look like we deceived them. I think it’s best to put all things on the table and let people rely on the Holy Ghost. God knows men’s hearts and he will find a way to move them in the right way if they are sincere.

Moreover, I do not think Jesus would lie. There is no scriptural account of him telling a lie anywhere. He tells the truth boldly and lets the consequence follow. Why do you need to lie unless you are not on the Lord’s side? Once again, I will say this: If we are not willing to be imprisoned for the truth, we are not worthy of God’s kingdom.

I think this is one of the reasons Mitt Romney was not elected president this last presidential election. There were several things he was questioned on, to which he said, “I never said that.” However, after rolling back the footage from previous years to show that he did, in fact, say it, it made him look untruthful. I think a lot of these issues could have been overlooked if he said, “I have learned over the years that my original position was uninformed, so I have adjusted my position to this.” Another big issue was the bullying incident. He and some of his school buddies bullied a guy in high school, because they assumed he had an attraction for those of the same gender. When it was brought up during his campaign, he basically said he didn’t remember doing anything like that, but all his friends who bullied the guy with him admitted to the incident. I think here if Mitt Romney would have just said, “I did it, I was wrong, and I owe him an apology for my part in it,” people would have seen him as human, flawed yes, but human.

In conclusion, I don’t think lying in our day has ever brought about any good. Maybe you could argue with the story of Abraham, but that was a very lawless timeーthis is not. I would only say you are ever justified if the Holy Ghost has specifically told you to do so, and you know without a doubt you are on the right side of the God. If you know you’re not, it may be better to take another lesson from the Savior and learn to remain silent when it is in the best thing to do.