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	Comments on: If Joseph Smith used a hat and a stone, why the need for the gold plates?	</title>
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	<description>Moral answers to everyday concerns, curiosities, and uncertainties.  Gramps considers all questions on all topics from all sources.</description>
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		<title>
		By: Chuck_Key		</title>
		<link>https://askgramps.org/joseph-smith-used-hat-stone-need-gold-plates/#comment-36010</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chuck_Key]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Sep 2017 22:04:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://en.elds.org/askgramps-org/?p=29411#comment-36010</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Isn&#039;t it strange that throughout history the only time God presented something written by somebody other than a man was the 10 commandments...and only the first time. The second time Moses has to engrave them.

Again, the question comes up: where are the golden plates now?

In a revelation recorded in Doctrine and Covenants 17:2, Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, and Martin Harris were told that it was by faith they would obtain a view of the plates. This event did not take place in the room where Smith had allegedly been translating the plates, but out in the woods. It was after retiring to the woods that Smith and the three men tried “to obtain, by fervent and humble prayer,” the fulfillment of that revelation. One might ask why they needed prayer to see a tangible, physical object. When praying did not result in a “manifestation of divine favor,” Martin Harris excused himself, thinking he was the hindrance. Once he left, the remaining three men prayed again and an angel stood before them holding the plates. Smith then went to find Harris who was a “considerable distance” away. The two men prayed and the “same vision” was opened to their view. Eight more men insisted they, too, &#039;saw&#039; the plates, but again the evidence suggests that they saw them with spiritual eyes or in &#039;vision.&#039; ”
(http://www.equip.org/article/problems-with-the-gold-plates-of-the-book-of-mormon-2/)

Now, let&#039;s get this straight: God sent an angel to give plates to a msn rather than just tell whatever message they supposedly contained? Why didn&#039;t God do that with ANY of the Bible itself? He waited nearly 200 years after the Revelation to add this stuff to His Word? I just don&#039;t buy it. Christians believe that there WILL be prophets in the last days, but nowhere do we read of somebody&#039;s receiving some otherwise-undecipherable plates for a man to translate. And think about it: God had something important enough to change the world and hid it underground under a stone? 

I also have trouble with Mormons&#039; claim that Jesus was once a man and that we will become Gods. That, in effect, makes the Bible a lie...which it ISN&#039;T. God created man, and man can never become a god.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isn&#8217;t it strange that throughout history the only time God presented something written by somebody other than a man was the 10 commandments&#8230;and only the first time. The second time Moses has to engrave them.</p>
<p>Again, the question comes up: where are the golden plates now?</p>
<p>In a revelation recorded in Doctrine and Covenants 17:2, Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, and Martin Harris were told that it was by faith they would obtain a view of the plates. This event did not take place in the room where Smith had allegedly been translating the plates, but out in the woods. It was after retiring to the woods that Smith and the three men tried “to obtain, by fervent and humble prayer,” the fulfillment of that revelation. One might ask why they needed prayer to see a tangible, physical object. When praying did not result in a “manifestation of divine favor,” Martin Harris excused himself, thinking he was the hindrance. Once he left, the remaining three men prayed again and an angel stood before them holding the plates. Smith then went to find Harris who was a “considerable distance” away. The two men prayed and the “same vision” was opened to their view. Eight more men insisted they, too, &#8216;saw&#8217; the plates, but again the evidence suggests that they saw them with spiritual eyes or in &#8216;vision.&#8217; ”<br />
(<a href="http://www.equip.org/article/problems-with-the-gold-plates-of-the-book-of-mormon-2/" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.equip.org/article/problems-with-the-gold-plates-of-the-book-of-mormon-2/</a>)</p>
<p>Now, let&#8217;s get this straight: God sent an angel to give plates to a msn rather than just tell whatever message they supposedly contained? Why didn&#8217;t God do that with ANY of the Bible itself? He waited nearly 200 years after the Revelation to add this stuff to His Word? I just don&#8217;t buy it. Christians believe that there WILL be prophets in the last days, but nowhere do we read of somebody&#8217;s receiving some otherwise-undecipherable plates for a man to translate. And think about it: God had something important enough to change the world and hid it underground under a stone? </p>
<p>I also have trouble with Mormons&#8217; claim that Jesus was once a man and that we will become Gods. That, in effect, makes the Bible a lie&#8230;which it ISN&#8217;T. God created man, and man can never become a god.</p>
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		<title>
		By: blackweta		</title>
		<link>https://askgramps.org/joseph-smith-used-hat-stone-need-gold-plates/#comment-35501</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[blackweta]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jan 2017 07:09:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://en.elds.org/askgramps-org/?p=29411#comment-35501</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I learnt today that while he used seer stones (which I am OK with ) the plates were often not present! ( which I am not OK with. IN which case, there was no translation happening at all.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I learnt today that while he used seer stones (which I am OK with ) the plates were often not present! ( which I am not OK with. IN which case, there was no translation happening at all.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Nick Boyer		</title>
		<link>https://askgramps.org/joseph-smith-used-hat-stone-need-gold-plates/#comment-33580</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nick Boyer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Dec 2014 08:02:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://en.elds.org/askgramps-org/?p=29411#comment-33580</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The witnesses only say they saw the plates with spiritual eyes. Why need physical plates then?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The witnesses only say they saw the plates with spiritual eyes. Why need physical plates then?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jeff Pack		</title>
		<link>https://askgramps.org/joseph-smith-used-hat-stone-need-gold-plates/#comment-33265</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jeff Pack]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Sep 2014 05:21:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://en.elds.org/askgramps-org/?p=29411#comment-33265</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[It seems to me that it may have also been a matter of accountability and stewardship.  Joseph was given stewardship over the plates by Moroni, who held the priesthood keys to preside over all things concerning the sacred records. Joseph was then held accountable for the safety and well being of those plates.  His sacrifice as measured in the lengths he had to go to protect and safeguard the plates must have been part of his qualification to translate them.  As we sing in the sacred hymn dedicated to him, &quot;Sacrifice brings forth the blessings of heaven;&quot;  Joseph kept his covenant of sacrifice, and we are all beneficiaries of the unspeakable blessings that followed!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems to me that it may have also been a matter of accountability and stewardship.  Joseph was given stewardship over the plates by Moroni, who held the priesthood keys to preside over all things concerning the sacred records. Joseph was then held accountable for the safety and well being of those plates.  His sacrifice as measured in the lengths he had to go to protect and safeguard the plates must have been part of his qualification to translate them.  As we sing in the sacred hymn dedicated to him, &#8220;Sacrifice brings forth the blessings of heaven;&#8221;  Joseph kept his covenant of sacrifice, and we are all beneficiaries of the unspeakable blessings that followed!</p>
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		<title>
		By: Just_A_Guy		</title>
		<link>https://askgramps.org/joseph-smith-used-hat-stone-need-gold-plates/#comment-33193</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Just_A_Guy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Aug 2014 16:05:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://en.elds.org/askgramps-org/?p=29411#comment-33193</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://askgramps.org/joseph-smith-used-hat-stone-need-gold-plates/#comment-33120&quot;&gt;wilbur&lt;/a&gt;.

The seer stone used--also called the &quot;Chase&quot; stone--was later given to Oliver Cowdery.  Cowdery&#039;s widow gave it to, I believe, a brother of Brigham Young&#039;s who happened to stop by her home while returning to Utah from a mission.  It was last publicly seen at the dedication of the Manti Temple.  In the mid-1950s, Joseph Fielding Smith--then serving concurrently as President of the Quorum of the Twelve as well as Church Historian and Recorder--affirmed that the stone was in the Church&#039;s custody.

By the time Whitmer was involved, the translation process seems to have been unfolding as Whitmer described--the stone in the hat and so forth.  But it apparently took Joseph Smith a while to work out this process; and he did indeed begin by copying and studying some of the engravings from the actual plates.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://askgramps.org/joseph-smith-used-hat-stone-need-gold-plates/#comment-33120">wilbur</a>.</p>
<p>The seer stone used&#8211;also called the &#8220;Chase&#8221; stone&#8211;was later given to Oliver Cowdery.  Cowdery&#8217;s widow gave it to, I believe, a brother of Brigham Young&#8217;s who happened to stop by her home while returning to Utah from a mission.  It was last publicly seen at the dedication of the Manti Temple.  In the mid-1950s, Joseph Fielding Smith&#8211;then serving concurrently as President of the Quorum of the Twelve as well as Church Historian and Recorder&#8211;affirmed that the stone was in the Church&#8217;s custody.</p>
<p>By the time Whitmer was involved, the translation process seems to have been unfolding as Whitmer described&#8211;the stone in the hat and so forth.  But it apparently took Joseph Smith a while to work out this process; and he did indeed begin by copying and studying some of the engravings from the actual plates.</p>
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		<title>
		By: wilbur		</title>
		<link>https://askgramps.org/joseph-smith-used-hat-stone-need-gold-plates/#comment-33120</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[wilbur]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Aug 2014 21:04:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://en.elds.org/askgramps-org/?p=29411#comment-33120</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://askgramps.org/joseph-smith-used-hat-stone-need-gold-plates/#comment-33077&quot;&gt;Keith Donovan&lt;/a&gt;.

The seer stone was used more often than the Urim and Thumin and is said to be in church possession today. Eye witness accounts tell us that Joseph did not look at the plate to translate them.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://askgramps.org/joseph-smith-used-hat-stone-need-gold-plates/#comment-33077">Keith Donovan</a>.</p>
<p>The seer stone was used more often than the Urim and Thumin and is said to be in church possession today. Eye witness accounts tell us that Joseph did not look at the plate to translate them.</p>
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		<title>
		By: James g		</title>
		<link>https://askgramps.org/joseph-smith-used-hat-stone-need-gold-plates/#comment-33111</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[James g]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2014 23:09:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://en.elds.org/askgramps-org/?p=29411#comment-33111</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reference to thw often misunderstood execution of laban...

&quot;Barring the Law of Moses that justified Nephi’s execution of Laban, the law according to God necessitated that Laban be judged and measured according to his own word. Nephi carried out justice under the law of obedience, not under the law of justice – and consequently, was blessed for his actions as well as for his intentions.

Nephi was not acting contrary to God’s laws, nor did God command him in contradiction to previous commandments; in fact, just the opposite. Nephi exemplified the example of the Savior and demonstrated mercy, forgiveness, and honorably enforced justice by acting in direct obedience to God.&quot;

http://www.mormonchronicle.com/nephis-honorable-execution-of-laban/]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reference to thw often misunderstood execution of laban&#8230;</p>
<p>&#8220;Barring the Law of Moses that justified Nephi’s execution of Laban, the law according to God necessitated that Laban be judged and measured according to his own word. Nephi carried out justice under the law of obedience, not under the law of justice – and consequently, was blessed for his actions as well as for his intentions.</p>
<p>Nephi was not acting contrary to God’s laws, nor did God command him in contradiction to previous commandments; in fact, just the opposite. Nephi exemplified the example of the Savior and demonstrated mercy, forgiveness, and honorably enforced justice by acting in direct obedience to God.&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.mormonchronicle.com/nephis-honorable-execution-of-laban/" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.mormonchronicle.com/nephis-honorable-execution-of-laban/</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: Don Alsop		</title>
		<link>https://askgramps.org/joseph-smith-used-hat-stone-need-gold-plates/#comment-33099</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Don Alsop]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 17 Aug 2014 14:18:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://en.elds.org/askgramps-org/?p=29411#comment-33099</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[No, Joseph would not have needed the plates.  With the Seer Stone Joseph could have written about the Nephites or any other civilization he chose.  The Plates serve as collective body of evidence and the testimonies of Many Prophets and even Jesus Christ as to how we should be conducting ourselves and will be used, along with other bodies of evidence to judge each of us when &quot;the dead, small and great stand before God; and the books were opened...&quot; Rev. 20:12-13]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, Joseph would not have needed the plates.  With the Seer Stone Joseph could have written about the Nephites or any other civilization he chose.  The Plates serve as collective body of evidence and the testimonies of Many Prophets and even Jesus Christ as to how we should be conducting ourselves and will be used, along with other bodies of evidence to judge each of us when &#8220;the dead, small and great stand before God; and the books were opened&#8230;&#8221; Rev. 20:12-13</p>
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		<title>
		By: Telavian		</title>
		<link>https://askgramps.org/joseph-smith-used-hat-stone-need-gold-plates/#comment-33085</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Telavian]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Aug 2014 01:12:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://en.elds.org/askgramps-org/?p=29411#comment-33085</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[A more general question is why does God want us to do anything when he can do it himself? I think the answer is obvious, but sometimes it is hard when you are in the midst of it.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A more general question is why does God want us to do anything when he can do it himself? I think the answer is obvious, but sometimes it is hard when you are in the midst of it.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ben Arkell		</title>
		<link>https://askgramps.org/joseph-smith-used-hat-stone-need-gold-plates/#comment-33080</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ben Arkell]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2014 18:09:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://en.elds.org/askgramps-org/?p=29411#comment-33080</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Another thought I have is this - so often God is concerned with Him working miracles and man thinking it is their own wisdom that allowed them to accomplish the task. God can do his own work. He wanted their to be no doubt as to who was behind the work.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another thought I have is this &#8211; so often God is concerned with Him working miracles and man thinking it is their own wisdom that allowed them to accomplish the task. God can do his own work. He wanted their to be no doubt as to who was behind the work.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Keith Donovan		</title>
		<link>https://askgramps.org/joseph-smith-used-hat-stone-need-gold-plates/#comment-33077</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Keith Donovan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2014 13:47:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://en.elds.org/askgramps-org/?p=29411#comment-33077</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Joseph, also was required to first study the plates and do the best he could on his own to understand them. He used them to copy characters that Martin Harris used to show to professor Anthon, that convinced Harris to finance the publishing of the book. Also, although stories have been told about him using the hat and stone, I don&#039;t believe he used this method exclusively. It&#039;s just more memorable. And possibly the stone needed to be near the plates, like the iPhone has an app that can look at a sign or a piece of text and show you the sign with a translation into English.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joseph, also was required to first study the plates and do the best he could on his own to understand them. He used them to copy characters that Martin Harris used to show to professor Anthon, that convinced Harris to finance the publishing of the book. Also, although stories have been told about him using the hat and stone, I don&#8217;t believe he used this method exclusively. It&#8217;s just more memorable. And possibly the stone needed to be near the plates, like the iPhone has an app that can look at a sign or a piece of text and show you the sign with a translation into English.</p>
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		<title>
		By: ppeebles		</title>
		<link>https://askgramps.org/joseph-smith-used-hat-stone-need-gold-plates/#comment-33076</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ppeebles]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Aug 2014 13:23:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://en.elds.org/askgramps-org/?p=29411#comment-33076</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Also just for clarification, Joseph Smith didn&#039;t &quot;write&quot; the Book of Mormon, he translated it.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also just for clarification, Joseph Smith didn&#8217;t &#8220;write&#8221; the Book of Mormon, he translated it.</p>
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